A month ago I highlighted this very subject and asked whether we should legalise brothels. That very same message is now being endorsed by a local newspaper following the death of a prostitute from Ipswich, a young
woman of 25, and the disappearance of a second prostitute from the town, aged 19.
A murder investigation has been launched by Suffolk police following the discovery of the naked body of Gemma Adams (pic) which had been dumped in a stream. She had been missing for two weeks.
There are also considerable fears for the safety of Tania Nichol, who disappeared from Ipswich more than a month ago. Detectives have said the disappearance of the two women, who were friends, had “obvious similarities”.
This terrible scenario has prompted renewed calls from English Collective of Prostitutes for legalised brothels to be set up. They argue it would stop women being forced to ply their trade in dark back streets.
An editorial in the East Anglian Daily Times has backed them saying:
“Legalised brothels take away the element of danger. The girls work in a safe environment, their sexual health is checked regularly, thus reducing health risk for their customers. It also removes red-light districts from towns.
“If this admittedly controversial change is not made, then more prostitutes like Gemma will meet violent deaths.”
If anyone else died while carrying out their profession, health and safety inspectors would soon be investigating, as well as police, isn’t it time that some measure of safety was also be offered to prostitutes?
Update: 5 December, 2006. The Times runs the same story.
OK, you’ve convinced me, Ellee. There always has been and always will be prostitution, so there should be some protection for the women.
And here we go again Elle.
You mentioned “if anyone else died in their in their profession”…. That’s the point. Prostitution isn’t a recognised profession.
A lot of people simply don’t care as they have other worries and concerns that affect them on a daily basis. Asbos, debt, education, health care, pensions, drug addictions etc.
It’s a changing of minds that’s needed and as in your previous post on this – a sensible and grown up discussion about it.
If we can just get people past the seediness (sp) of prostitution than maybe that’s when people will take the very valid points made onboard.
What people fail to realise is that you don’t have a career plan in mind as a child to turn to prostition when you are older. It usually involves, doctor, lawyer, nurse etc.
Teri, I felt in light of the murder, with another prostitute also missing, and the fact that a local newspaper was pleading this case, that this was worth highlighting again.
Ellee…..and quite rightly so. It does need highlighting but also people (government) really need to start tackling the issue constructively instead of running away from a tough fight. It’s not the easiest of subjects to handle I know, but if we don’t try it will never be resolved.
I really thought in light of the recent trafficking revelations over here, more of an effort would be made.
It’s good to see the local media making a plea and bloggers like yourself highlighting this aswell. It would be great if the mainstream media would jump onboard.
I am in favour of out of town brothels that are not in populated areas that are set up by the council and have about 50 bedrooms. the council should provide security and cleaning staff and the prostitute should be made to pay for their share of the security and cleaning staff.
The brothel should also have a drug rehab clinic as a lot of prostitutes are only doing it because they need drugs. The rehab clinic should be entirely voluntary though.
Wayne – all good points. But why should the drug rehab be voluntary? just asking.
I only ask because prostitution isn’t just a means of supporting a drug habits. Other factors and reasons come into play. Like debt, like lone parenting, pur education, low self esteem etc.
If we could set up a drug rehab – then I think working with someone like the lighthouse project http://www.lighthouseproject.co.uk/ for the additional needs of these woman would also be benefical. What do ya think?
There are legal brothels in Nevada, as you may know, and the world hasn’t ended. That’s a choice society makes whether to legalize any particular activity… or not.
But you’re talking about providing an element of ‘safety’ for persons engaged in what is still a criminal enterprise. What next? Safety nets for cat burglars?
If the ‘oldest profession’ is legalized, then it can be regulated… and that’s what some of the links you cite advocate. That’s merely an exercise of political will: But I don’t see how you can provide any ‘safety’ without taking that step that is probably entirely unpalatable to many.
Legalising prostitution may be unpalatable for many, but in light of the attrocious conditions that these women work in and the influx of women and girls being brought in from other countries and forced into prostitution, it is probably the only way to gain some measure of control and safety.
Also it would then be a taxable income, and lets face it we already get screwed over our taxes.
Crud – yep you’re right about the unpalatable aspect. That’s why I agree with Elle whole heartedly about a grown up discussion about this.
If we talk about it long and hard enough and thereby force the issue into the public domain, we stand some degree of chance into leaving the seedy aspect behind and focusing on the beneficial practicalities of legalisation.
Ellee, whose backside can I chew about this?You’re in the know about these things!
I think it would be wrong to make them get off drugs if they don’t want to. Those that don’t want to would probably decide against going to the council run brothel and then risking their lives.
Admitting you are an addict is supposed to be the first step. Taking the rest of those steps should be your own choice.
I would stop any drugs from being consumed on the premises though.
Wayne, you wouldn’t stand a chance of getting them off drugs if they didn’t want to. Not a chance.
Even when someone who is drug dependant tries they find it extremly difficult.
That’s why I think working with other agencies such as the charity run lighthouse project would be of great benefit.
I personally wouldn’t allow a drug dependent prostitute to work in a legalised brothel. You’ve got to thing of the safety and well being of others working there and provide these girls with a clean and safe environment.
Teri, I would suggest contacting Eleanor Laing, Shadow Minister for Women and Equality:
http://www.conservatives.com/tile.do?def=people.person.page&personID=4930
Her Labour counterpart is Ruth Kelly:
http://www.womenandequalityunit.gov.uk/about/ministers.htm
I would suggest contacting them both, do let me know how you get on.
Thanks Ellee. I will.Is it okay to refer to your blog and the great points raised on this?
Teri, Yes, please do if you feel it will help.
The oldest profession will always be notorious, regardless of actions. If they are legalised, will they be in the Yellow Pages?
“you wouldn’t stand a chance of getting them off drugs if they didn’t want to. Not a chance�
Which is why they will only get drug treatment if they want it.
“You’ve got to thing of the safety and well being of others working there and provide these girls with a clean and safe environment�
and they would be given regular health checks. If they had any STDs they would not be allowed to go back to their work until they were STD free. In the states they have regular tests.
They would not be allowed to bring drugs into the brothel.
This one’s so tough. Like in the abortion debate, it’s fine having a point of view but meanwhile human tragedy is occurring. The only concern I see is that if it’s legalized, it becomes a profession and then, like any other profession, girls are recruited into it, not by any less harsh methods but with the sanction of the state to draw them from anywhere. True it will cut out the underage though.
Isn’t it already a profession?
Teri,
The Times has run the story today, calling it a Ripper murder:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-2486961,00.html
Today’s East Anglian has quotes from the English Collective of Prostitutes saying: “The Government has to end the criminalisation of sex work as the real and terrible consequence is that women suffer violence at the hands of men who do not consider sex workers to have value. They are seen as dispensable and disposable.”
They have asked Suffolk police to start an “arrest amnesty” so women working in the sex trade who come forward with information will not be prosecuted.”
Ellee I think I’m with you on this in that it should be legal. Not just for the murders but things like unprotected sex, I’d imagine that there are lots of rapes associated with prostitution too and the worst people involved seem often to be the pimps who may be hired muscle to intimidate teh clients but often turn into hired muscle to intimidate teh prostitutes. It isn’t something I’m comfortable legalisign but I can see your point.
New Zealand legalised prostitution a couple of years ago (amid huge controversy and toy-throwing from the less liberal sector of society). The consensus now seems to be that it’s definitely helped the industry clamp down on some of the less savoury and dangerous aspects. So I’m hoping the UK follows suit.
One of the biggest problems with legalizing prostitution is that it makes trafficking of women far easier for their exploiters. The Netherlands (where prostitution is legal) is already believed to be a major destination for trafficking victims who are forced into prostitution.
http://www.gvnet.com/humantrafficking/Netherlands.htm
http://www.sweden.se/templates/cs/CommonPage____13325.aspx
I’m not sure legalizing prostitution is the answer. I believe we should simply stop prosecuting prostitutes, prosecute only the johns, and offer services, shelter for prostitutes to get help to get out of the “business”.
Another article concerning link between legalization of prostitution and trafficking:
http://usinfo.state.gov/xarchives/display.html?p=washfile-english&y=2006&m=November&x=20061129155338ajesrom0.928982
Faith, Many thanks for your interesting links. I think Teri in particular will be keen to read them.
“True it will cut out the underage though.”
Are you kidding? Child prostitution is flourishing in areas where prostitution is legal.
I hate to seem like I’m “blogwhoring” here, but I’m running a blog documenting a UN book that covers many of these issues. There is nothing original on the site. Everything is directly from “Broken Bodies – Broken Dreams”:
http://brokendreams.wordpress.com
Faith, Thanks again, I shall check out brokendreams. You’ve introduced us all to a new word too – “blogwhoring”.
“The Netherlands (where prostitution is legal) is already believed to be a major destination for trafficking victims who are forced into prostitution.”
Which is why the state should own and run the brothels. This gets the greedy pimps away and destroys their business.
“Are you kidding? Child prostitution is flourishing in areas where prostitution is legal.”
It wouldn’t if the state was only allowed to own the brothels.
“It wouldn’t if the state was only allowed to own the brothels.”
So you turn the state into the pimps? What would almost certainly happen then? The prostitutes would be preyed upon by the officials that were supposed to be protecting them.
Very few women prostitute themselves when they have other options. They are almost all women who lack skills and/or opportunity. I believe it is beyond time to send the message to men that women are not commodities that can be bought and sold.
As I stated before:
– Prosecute the Johns and the Pimps.
– Help the Prostitutes.
“New Zealand legalised prostitution a couple of years ago (amid huge controversy and toy-throwing from the less liberal sector of society). The consensus now seems to be that it’s definitely helped the industry clamp down on some of the less savoury and dangerous aspects. So I’m hoping the UK follows suit.”
Amsterdam is beginning to shut down the brothels because of the crime…
http://www.boston.com/news/world/europe/articles/2006/11/30/amsterdam_curbs_prostitution_windows/?p1=MEWell_Pos4
Legalization is not the answer. Eradication of poverty and increasing the status of women in society is.
“So you turn the state into the pimps?�
The fact is someone is going to be the pimp anyway. Isn’t it better to have a pimp who isn’t going to turn you into a sex slave and take most of the money?
“What would almost certainly happen then? The prostitutes would be preyed upon by the officials that were supposed to be protecting them�
They could leave the building anytime they wished. True, they may be preyed upon but they are far more likely to be preyed upon by the present pimps.
“I believe it is beyond time to send the message to men that women are not commodities that can be bought and sold.�
How is prostitution any different from going to work everyday and your boss telling you what to do? You’re basically selling your services for money both ways.
I believe that having state run brothels is not a perfect answer but it is the best answer so far.
I heard Winona LaDuke speak once and she told the story of a friend who had been abused by her husband for 18 years. Winona asked her what changed in the 18th year to make her leave him and this is what she said, “I was putting up Indian coat hangers (nails in a wall) when I realized that I’d better put them higher so that next time he threw me into a wall I wouldn’t get a nail in my head. That thought made me put the hanger down and gather my things to leave.”
I want to ask everyone reading this what kind of feminist they are, the kind who reminds abused women to put their nails higher or the kind that stops men from throwing women into walls.
by legalising brothels and having the state run them we are stopping men hurting women.
Sex workers themselves are not anywhere near divided on how horrendous prostitution is and how much they want out of it. Sex worker rights leader Carol Leigh said, “95% of my friends want out of prostitution.�
No one wants to be a whore, but some settle for being a whore because they have had it beaten into them that it is all they are good for and the best life has to offer. They know their price but don’t know what their worth, and I believe prostituted women and girls are worth infinitely more than the price men pay to use them as targets for their misogyny and semen. I want better than that for myself, and if I want better for myself than I’d be a hypocrite to not want the same for all women because there but for the grace of goddess go I. 90% of prostitutes say they want out of prostitution immediately and I intend to honour them by doing what I can to help them get out like they say they want out. Lets remember these are you know human beings – women – we are talking about – not just a collection of holes for men
Yes, you know men
And my way they would be helped to get out of it. The way I see it they are prostitutes because:
1. The pimps are treating them like sex slaves and making them do it.
2. They have a dependence on drugs.
There are probably other reasons too but we will just focus on these 2.
If we make it so that prostitution can only happen on state premises you remove the violent pimps that make them do it.
The police then have more resources to go after the pimps that are actually making the prostitutes do it. We know they will be making them do it because all the other prostitutes will be in state premises doing their business.
Adding a drug rehab centre to the brothel will allow the prostitutes to get off the drugs and out of prostitution.
Wayne I hear what you are saying. I earn a living as a drugs/prostitution (as you have rightly stated all interwoven) counsellor.
HOWEVER, I want to put the emphasis back on to men -who do NOT have a *divine* right to buy women’s bodies. This is what we must work for. Over 90% of prostitutes want out NOW.
Oldest profession? NO actually, midwifery is…now men need to get off their entitlement platform and start seeing women as HU-Man. Not fuck/abuse/ridicule/humiliation/objects but as human the same as they are…
Not you Wayne – but I ask what is so difficult to understand.
I do see them as human but if they are going to do it then we should make it as safe as possible. Why put the emphasis on men? it is the woman that is offering the service. men are just taking advantage of what the woman is giving away.
and oh yeah everyone hates their job.
“I do see them as human but if they are going to do it then we should make it as safe as possible. Why put the emphasis on men? it is the woman that is offering the service. men are just taking advantage of what the woman is giving away.”
You’re still not getting it Wayne. Let me repeat what I and others have already stated – very few women prostitute themselves by choice. Even if it seems that they are they are almost always simply uneducated, drug addicted, and lacking other opportunity. They eventually desensitize themselves to try to deal with what is happening to them; this is a common mechanism that victims of sexual abuse use (which btw is what is occurring most of the time when a man has sex with a prostitute – he is abusing her sexually) in an attempt to cope and lessen the impact of what is happening to them. Having a man enter your body is a very intimate act that DOES affect a woman under any circumstance.
The emphasis absolutely should be placed on men. They must get it through their thick skulls that they are abusers when they have sex with the average prostitute and they are largely responsible for the trade of prostitution refusing women opportunities for other employment, by abusing them as children, and by providing the demand.
“NO actually, midwifery is…now men need to get off their entitlement platform and start seeing women as HU-Man. Not fuck/abuse/ridicule/humiliation/objects but as human the same as they are…”
I always love that line (Prostitution being the oldest profession). I do wonder where men came up with that idea.
Why put the emphasis on men?
Because prostitutes would not exist without the men who buy them.
“They eventually desensitize themselves to try to deal with what is happening to them; this is a common mechanism that victims of sexual abuse use (which btw is what is occurring most of the time when a man has sex with a prostitute – he is abusing her sexually”
oh puhlease! How is having sex with a prostitute abusing someone anymore than having sex with someone for free in a one night stand?
Both women are willing and they are not forced into anything.
“they are largely responsible for the trade of prostitution refusing women opportunities for other employment”
So men are refusing them employment? How do you know it wasn’t a woman boss that did it? this is BS.
“Because prostitutes would not exist without the men who buy them”
And the men would not exist if the mothers remembered to take the pill…
Lets say prostitutes are abused. Wouldn’t they be less abused if they were in brothels run by the local council where they had safety, security and a chance to get off drugs?
They might be abused as prostitutes but you CANNOT stop prostitution you can only make it safer for the women involved.
Emphasis is on men because MEN buy women
You know men
men men men men men
Men buy women-you know MEN buying women creates the demand. The same as Mc Donalds, or public transport if we stopped buying they would not exist. The consumer generates demand. Over 90% WANT OUT NOW!
Howzabout wanting out as in the suicide rate among prostituted women is through the fucking roof as suicide rates go?. Most brothels have bars on the windows not to keep rapists out but to keep rapees in. The voluminous Swedish report that instigated the anti-john law infamously tells the story of a Swedish prostitute who killed herself jumping out a high-story window. Joss Whedon’s “Firefly� series and the movie “Serenity� give some pains that are worse than death through the man-like Reavers who are rapists and cannibals.
There is no justifiable reason for anyone to claim ignorance about the lives of prostituted women. Here http://www.prostitutionresearch.com/ and there are many, many more.
Where have the Swedish prostituted women gone? Not to Norway or to a mythical underground place tricks can readily find but police can’t. According to very credible reports �60% of those who were in prostitution are now out of prostitution and in other activities, whether it is employment, education, counseling, whatever it may be.
There is no reason for anyone to keep ignoring men’s roles in the creation of prostitutes. Stop ignoring men. You write, “Given that women continue to do sex work…� when what you should have written is “Given that men continue to make women do sex work…�
Legalising prostitution will not help the OVER 90% that want out. The Holland model has not worked, child prostitution and traffiling has increased dramatically. We need to adopt the Swedish model of holding the John responsible…
“Emphasis is on men because MEN buy women�
So the emphasis should be on the druggie and not the drug dealer who grows and sells the drugs and gets people addicted? Afterall if it wasn’t for the druggie the drug lord wouldn’t have to sell these drugs. Yes let’s blame the druggie. The drug lord is just a victim of the druggie.
No Wayne we are talking of Johns buying women’s bodies = emphasis on the buyer. To grow, sell, or consume drugs is illegal. To buy women’s bodies is legal and should be illegal. As I have suggested research the Swedish model and see for yourself it’s successes – it is working and Norway is to follow shortly, two very progressive countries that have recognised that men do not have the *right* to stick their dicks in women at anytime they feel horny not even if the ‘other’ god *money* is exchanged. Countries with legalised prostitution are failing miserably, with increased trafficking and child prostitution.
I have never entirely understood the massive defensiveness that accompanies men’s perceived threat to their whores been liberated. Unless of course they are Johns, potential Johns, or just have that penis given John sense of entitlement to pussy-meat.
You know Johns Johns Johns – fine abusers of female flesh. Three holes and two hands.
What does that say about men who (ab)use prostitutes and what these girls/women have to endure?
Alternatively, I can never really understand men who defend prostitution as a god/dick given right. I am finished with this subject for I have taken time to see the bigger picture—clue—it does not reside in my crotch.
Teri it is a profession certaintly the UK tax authorities think so anyway.
“Countries with legalised prostitution are failing miserably, with increased trafficking and child prostitution.�
If we legalised prostitution and allowed the state to have a monopoly on it we would have the resources to go for the child prostitutes and those that buy them easily.
Let me explain. If the local council were the only ones allowed to own and run a brothel we could then make the prostitutes come to us putting the local pimps out of business because those that weren’t in government run facilities would be hounded out until they went to government run facilities.
The police would then not have to worry about prostitutes and the pimps. The police could then gather their resources and actually fight against child prostitution.
There could be no trafficking because there would be no pimps involved. There could be no child prostitution because the police would have more resources to deal with it. It’s quite easy really.
“What does that say about men who (ab)use prostitutes and what these girls/women have to endure?�
Seeing as you are against prostitution I assume you would ban porn afterall it’s just the same?
“Alternatively, I can never really understand men who defend prostitution as a god/dick given right.�
Actually I would never sleep with a prostitute. I am not doing it for men. I am doing it for the basic human right of doing whatever you want with your body which includes women.
“Both women are willing and they are not forced into anything.”
Wrong. Most prostitutes are forced into protstitution. They have no other choice. The men having sex with them absolutely are abusing them. They have no consideration for them and are only using them for their own pleasure with no regard for the impact it has on them. This is abuse, wayne. But of course being steeped in male privilege you are clearly completely unable to recognize this simple fact.
“There could be no trafficking because there would be no pimps involved. There could be no child prostitution because the police would have more resources to deal with it. It’s quite easy really.”
The increased acceptance of sexual commodification results in an increase in trafficking.
“I am not doing it for men. I am doing it for the basic human right of doing whatever you want with your body which includes women.”
VERY few of them are doing it by choice. They have no other choice.Choosing to do something that degrades you and causes you serious psychological harm because you have no other options is not a choice.
“Lets say prostitutes are abused. Wouldn’t they be less abused if they were in brothels run by the local council where they had safety, security and a chance to get off drugs?
They might be abused as prostitutes but you CANNOT stop prostitution you can only make it safer for the women involved.”
There is no “lets say…” about it. Prostitutes are abused, both by clients and also usually as children by a male relative (the majority of prostitutes were sexually abused as children). The standard male arguement that you cannot stop prostitution is astounding. It absolutely can be stopped by providing for women that are forced into prostitution and by educating men on how flawed their view of sex actually is.
“The increased acceptance of sexual commodification results in an increase in trafficking”
You haven’t explained how. How would there be any increase in trafficking when only council run brothels would be allowed?
You haven’t answered my question:
Seeing as you are against prostitution I assume you would ban porn afterall it’s just the same?
“Seeing as you are against prostitution I assume you would ban porn after all it’s just the same?”
Just popped by to see how it is going and I see some derailment going on. Male entitlement rearing its head. WHA’ my whore’s AND porn. Gee, life isn’t fair! Wayne no one has mentioned ‘banning’ porn, though as you have brilliantly pointed out…
“I assume you would ban porn after all it’s just the same?”
Different shit with the same smell. Abuse and entitlement of women’s bodies as whores. Pornography actually means “pictures of whores”
So real whores or pictures of whores, boy this whoring of females has to be challenged. We are NOT a sub-class of human being; we are not here to relieve men’s erections and the world does not revolve around the male orgasm. However, one could be forgiven for thinking so…
“I’m not sure legalizing prostitution is the answer. I believe we should simply stop prosecuting prostitutes, prosecute only the johns, and offer services, shelter for prostitutes to get help to get out of the “businessâ€?.
Thank you, others please take note. I have worked with prostituted women for over six years and believe me they want out -NOW
bloody hell. you just can’t get through to hysterical feminists.
“Hysterical feminists.”
It’s so cute when it spouts cliches.
Not.
***hysterical feminists***
Wayne – people resort to name calling when they have not got anything constructive to say. It is a very transparant tactic….
How are we ***hysterical***? because we…. do not agree with a MAN! (end of sarcasm)
You are hysterical because you think that everything is a mans fault
[…] Thanks to everyone who posted comments with these links, and thanks to Faith for what I feel summarises the background to prostitution: […]
These news have become so usual nowadays showing us the world we are living in. I am frightened and my only protection is cautiousness. What can a drug rehab center do without the community help?